The Power of Persuasion – David Deutsch
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SUMMARY
KEY TAKEAWAYS
To do things that are good for people, they need to be persuaded to do that. The power of persuasion is of critical importance.
If you think your product is not right for someone, don’t persuade them to buy it.
If it’s a product that they generally need, that they can afford, do what you can to see that they get the help that that products going to give them.
Their money in my pocket gets them something that’s going to have value beyond that money that’s now in their pocket.
It’s not money that’s really being exchanged. It’s just energy. Money is happening so that something else bigger can happen.
Believe in what you have to sell and that what you have will be better for that person.
Think that you’re taking the person on this journey that you want to take them on, from skepticism and disbelief to accepting your product and to believing it’s going to help them
People resist new stuff until you prove them how valuable it is. The power of persuasion is extraordinary.
Boosting the art of persuasion and realizing the power of persuasion
- Just try to persuade people of things in life.
- You would learn more from trying to persuade someone of something than from following some set of rules in terms of what makes for good persuasion.
- Study how to help people decide to do something that are good for them.
- You got to keep showing up in people’s world.
- Try to make the reader like us but equally important is that we make the reader feel like we like them.
One of the safety bulbs is you can never really persuade someone of something if they’re not ready, not persuaded in their own minds already, or not really in their best interest.
The only thing you can do is just coax that part of them forward that’s secretly wanted to do that and would do it.
Persuasion is really just convincing people to act and the power of persuasion is critical.
People are already set in our certain ways.
All you can do is put something in front of someone and you can help them find the emotions that will help them to get excited about it and to feel what it might be like to do it.
A lot of people don’t really realize the power of persuasion and persuasion is understanding the rebuttals that people are going to have.
Strategies on how to do your research and understand the market
- Research.
- Go talk to people.
- Method acting.
- Go to Facebook and start making posts either to teach something or hint at a program or product. Then, see what the responses are.
TRANSCRIPTION: THE POWER OF PERSUASION – DAVID DEUTSCH
The Power of Persuasion
Luis Congdon
If you want to learn how to use your words to make money, if you want to learn how to make your writings stand out, make it really pop and have people be excited for your services, products or programs, then you won’t want to miss today’s episode.
Today, we’re going to be talking with David Deutsch about the power of persuasion. He’s a renowned copywriter, direct response marketer who used to work with Ogilvy and Mather on Madison Avenue. If you’ve ever really picked up anything around marketing, advertising, and selling, then you will without doubt come across Ogilvy and Mather. They’re one of the most world renowned companies, marketers that have ever lived on the planet. They’ve been around for a long time and what’s cool is David has worked for them. He’s gotten some incredible training and he’s also highly respected in his own right. He’s worked with companies like Healthy Directions, Agora, Sound View, Vianaar, and a bunch of other publishing and direct response marketing companies. So it’s a real pleasure to have David on the show today.
All right. We are here with David Deutsch. He’s a copywriter. He tells stories. He uses persuasion and knows the power of persuasion. He’s going to talk to us today about how we can sell through the written word, how we can persuade whether it’s or spoken. Welcome to the show David. Are you ready to launch?
David Deutsch
I am ready. Thanks for having me.
Kamala Chambers
Well, I’m really curious. What do you find is the most beneficial part of persuasion and do you think it’s creepy or anything like that to try to persuade people online? How do you define the power of persuasion?
I know that a lot of people like, come and are attracted to me in my audience, they don’t like sales at all.
Luis Congdon
That word, “Persuasion” even has like persuasion. It could even be creepy almost but we need to do it. Right, David? If we’re going to sell and enroll people into what we’re up to, we’re going to need to persuade people, yes?
David Deutsch
Yeah. I think you’re absolutely right. I think there’s a lot of negative connotations around the power of persuasion and I think those negative connotations, when people buy into it, it’s stops them from not just persuading people, it stops them from helping as many people as they can because people need to be persuaded.
You see how people are. To do things that are good for them, to lose weight, to exercise, they need to be persuaded to do that. They’re not just going to do it because you say, “It’s a really good idea. You should really exercise. You’re going to die early.” It takes persuasion. If it’s in the service of selling a product that’s going to benefit them, they’re not going to get that.
Luis Congdon
I hear you talking and immediately like, there’s two different parts of me. There’s the old me that’s listening, going, “Oh God. Having to persuade somebody to do something and having to almost be pushy or help him.”
Kamala Chambers
The non-profit Luis.
Luis Congdon
The non-profit Luis was very dedicated to persuading people to sleep in a shelter or get off drugs and alcohol but non-profit Luis, coming into the business world, did not like persuading people to buy his products or programs so as soon somebody said, “Oh, yeah. I don’t know if I can afford that,” or, “its sounds interesting. Let me think about it.” I say, “Cool. We’ll talk later,” or “Oh, yeah. No worries” and we get off the phone but that’s totally not what we should be doing. I mean, if we’re going to really serve somebody, there’s more that goes into persuading.
What kind of mindset hurdle we need to make in order to know the power of persuasion?
David Deutsch
I think we need to start with presumption that the products are going to help people. I think there’s some variation to that question. I may have a product that’s just not right for someone. I’m not going to persuade them to buy it and I know you wouldn’t either.
If it’s a product that they generally need, that they can afford, then I’m going to do what I can to see that they get the help that that products going to give them.
In a case like that, it’s almost like you’ve got to have a mindset of those people that they need what I have and as John Carlton would say, “They’ve got money in their pocket that belongs to me and I’m going to do what I can.”
Luis Congdon
I like that and then there’s the Wolf of Wall Street. John, I’m sorry to compare and put you in the same sense as the Wolf of Wall Street but he also says, “I could spend their money better than they can.”
Realizing the Power of Persuasion in Selling Your Product
David Deutsch
There may be some truth in that but at least there maybe truth in their money in my pocket gets them something that’s going to have value beyond that money that’s now in their pocket. That the $49 they’re going to give to me, I’m going to give them something that’s going to change their life or at least has the potential to change their life.
Luis Congdon
That’s the biggest hurdle I definitely have is I was learning about sales and the power of persuasion and it’s funny because there is a very persuasive side of me. Kamala can tell everybody about it.
Kamala Chambers
Oh my God. This guy can get anything he wants.
Luis Congdon
The power of persuasion really work in selling. I’m very persuasive and very pushy but then, when it came to selling my own products and services and having people actually give me money, there was this whole anxiety around it and I had to cultivate a different belief system and you’re so on the point for me David. I’m sure for the listeners too. You’re so on point because the first thing we have to believe in is what we’re offering. I knew what I was offering Kamala as the opportunity to date me and to get to know me.
Kamala Chambers
Opportunity. That’s really good Luis.
Luis Congdon
I mean that in the most humble and loving way of course. I knew if you went out with me, it would be very wonderful for both us. The power of persuasion in relationships is important as well. However, when it came to the product and something to sell and money being exchanged, I get very antsy.
Then, I started listening and hearing people like you David, saying, “You really think about the return of investment for this person, what are they’re going to get and it’s not money that’s really being exchanged. It’s just energy.” Money is happening so that something else bigger can happen and that makes it very easy for me now to get on a call and say, “This is the program that you need” and the person can feel a little bit uncomfortable and to make them feel the power of persuasion is sometimes challenging.
We really believe in it but this person is getting uncomfortable or they’ve given us pieces of information that we can really use but now, there’s this whole sense of you’re a little uncomfortable to push with the person a little bit.
David Deutsch
People always say, “Oh, what are the copywriting techniques?” “Tell me the four rules” or, “Tell me the magic thing that’s going to make me a great copywriter.” Really it’s just first of all, getting over that belief not selling from your heels like that.
David Deutsch
I think the most important thing is that mindset in knowing the power of persuasion. Also, think about taking the person on the journey that you want to take them on, from skepticism and disbelief to accepting your product and to believing it’s going to help them. This is how the power of persuasion really works.
Kamala Chambers
I think you just nailed it with knowing it can help them. I have tried to sell my offers in the very beginning as a coach and I didn’t know if it was going to help them because I never had a client before. So when they said, “Oh, well, I’m not interested,” or “Let me think about it,” I would just back away right away. I didn’t want to persuade them. In this case you need to learn the power of persuasion.
Once I saw how many results people were getting, then I really started to believe in it and buy into it. It’s like if I do not offer this to them, I’m doing a disservice. They’re not going to get the results. They’re going to keep sitting on the couch every day or they’re going to keep being broke. So, I think you’re right on there.
David Deutsch
Yeah. I mean, that’s what understanding of human psychology comes into and you need to realize the power of persuasion. Just the sheer amount of inertia that I would say people have but even that we all have, we’re still overwhelmed. We’re so busy. We’ve got so many courses to read and to do. So we resist new stuff until you prove to me how valuable it is. You can’t let that resistance stop you because that’s just people’s way of feeling you out as it were. Let me put forth my resistance and see what they come back within return. That’s the test. Go out and let the people throw down.
The Art and the Power of Persuasion
Kamala Chambers
Let’s get really concrete here. What is one thing that we can do to boost our art and the power of persuasion and or three things if you have them?
David Deutsch
It’s a very interesting technique. I’m stealing this I think from John Carlton where you just try to persuade people of things in life. He knows the power of persuasion very well.
Let’s say, you try to persuade someone to go to a certain movie. Let’s say you call out a friend and try to persuade them to read a certain book. You see very carefully both what their reactions are and what sorts of things work and don’t work because really, it’s just sort of an automatic thing in our lives right now. The power of persuasion is massive.
We try to persuade people to do something and the power of persuasion is critical. We try to persuade our kids to eat better and we try to persuade someone to go to a movie but we don’t really look at that. We don’t really see what persuasion and the power of persuasion is. I think if you really stop and you really start doing that more intentionally, you go through a couple of days where you really try to persuade people of things just for the sake of doing it. You watch when you have to persuade someone anyway for something. You don’t even have to make special situations.
Luis Congdon
Yeah. Kamala, just try it. It will be fun. Knowing the power of persuasion is real fun.
David Deutsch
You could try to persuade someone of something crazy like, “I think we should go sky diving.” “What?!” You start reporting statistics, “It’s really not as dangerous as most people think.” You tell them a little about how skydiving is so good for your self-image because once you’ve done that, you feel like you could do anything. Then, see what happens. This is how the power of persuasion works.
You don’t have to go skydiving. You could say, “You don’t have to go skydiving with me. This was just part of an experiment.” You would learn more from trying to persuade someone of something than from following some set of rules that I could give you in terms of what makes for good persuasion.
I could tell you what to watch for. I could tell you some things in general that make for good persuasion but…
David Deutsch
When you really study how to get people not to do things against their self-interest but just how to help people decide to either do something that’s good for them or just you want to go to this movie and darn it, I’m going to persuade them to go to this movie instead of this movie. Learn the power of persuasion techniques to make people comfortable.
Luis Congdon
If only anger worked through my copywriting. Just kidding.
David Deutsch
Actually, anger works pretty well.
Luis Congdon
I’ll be very upset if you don’t make this decision to have a puff of the cigarette, Kamala. We don’t smoke by the way. It’s a total joke.
Kamala Chambers
I don’t know. This is the first time I ever heard of it.
I’m thinking about how Luis said I’m not a good salesperson. I don’t do sales and I’ve never had anyone sell me harder to go out with them than you did. You pitched hard. You were like, “You want to go out with me and here are the reasons why.” I was not on the market. I was not buying. I was not interested in anyone. Let alone, some short bald dude.
Luis Congdon
That’s the non-handsome description of me but normally, I’m described as the stallion.
Kamala Chambers
He is. Yes.
David Deutsch
Kamala, what did he do to take you on that journey from, “I’m not in the market and you’re a short bald guy” to “I’ll give you a chance”. Obviously, it seems to have worked out.
Kamala Chambers
He’s worked out fantastic and now I’m like, “Oh damn! He’s a short bald guy. That’s sexy.”
Knowing the Power of Persuasion
Luis Congdon
She’s watching all the Jason Statham, Vin Diesel movies. Any guy that’s bald, she’s like, “Damn, that guy is handsome.” She knows the power of persuasion very well.
Today, we bring you Dale Partridge to talk about the key to success, morality, and balance.
Kamala Chambers
Anyway Luis, I think what the real trick was you kept coming forward. You kept showing up. Just like in marketing, you got to keep showing up and realize the power of persuasion.
Luis Congdon
It’s that daily email.
Kamala Chambers
Yeah, you got to keep showing up in people’s world. You keep showing and you were very persistent and you kept telling me why I want to be with you and why I was the best thing that you’ve ever come across. So, that’s another thing about the power of persuasion.
I think it’s really important for people to feel special. They need to feel special like, “Oh, wow! This person has created something special for me.” Luis made me feel incredibly special and he kept telling me all the benefits of being with him.
David Deutsch
I think that’s a really important point. A lot of people know six things is likable.
David Deutsch
“You’re special. You’re seeking out knowledge. You’re reading. You’re watching this VSL. You’re on this webpage. You’re obviously trying to make your life better. Not many people do that. If you buy this product, you will be even more special.”
Luis Congdon
I want to touch on something that you said is incredibly powerful and this is great for anyone listening, who considers himself not good at sales, not good at copywriting and yet, they have this hidden talent that they don’t even know that have, which is an ability to persuade people and knowing the power of persuasion.
You really need to know the power of persuasion. One of the best ways to get good at acknowledging yourself and your abilities verbally to persuade people and then, be able to transition that to writing because now, I’m a very confident persuader now and I’m just getting better and better. It is utilizing that exact tactic that you talked about David, is I started noticing what I would do with people. So with Kamala, I kept pointing about the benefits. A very laser targeted for her and with other people, if I want them to do something, I’d say, “Listen, you could sit at home and enjoy your Friday by yourself and have a TV dinner or maybe you want to come out with me. We’ll go to a couple of movies, go out to eat, and hit the town.
Kamala Chambers
Confidence.
Luis Congdon
But, there’s a big difference there where I’m also comparing. So, taking that over to product sales, “You could do without this product. Maybe you even spent countless hours trying to figure out how to put all of this together because it is out there and people that want it for free will figure it out. That’s a lot of hours and that’s totally up to you or you could have it here where it’s bundled for $49 and I spent countless hours making it very simple for you.” Even that, would be the way I would verbally talk to somebody. Now, writing that is essentially very simple.
David Deutsch
One of the safety bulbs is you can never really persuade someone of something if they’re not ready, not persuaded in their own minds already, or not really in their best interest.
You may be able to trick someone in the short term but you get found out pretty quickly. You get product returns. You’re not going to be able to convince someone to jump out of an airplane if there’s not some part of them that really has always wanted to do that and has just been afraid to come forward.
The only thing you can really do is just coax that part of them forward that’s secretly wanted to do that and would do it. You’re not going to take someone that’s got a fear of flying or something and get them to jump out of an airplane no matter how much you persuade them.
David Deutsch
I think that’s really all we’re doing. We’re not changing their mind as much as we’re just saying, “Hey, you know exercise is good for you, you know you need to do it. It’s good for your weight. It’s good for your health. Let’s get you off that couch and get you going. Let’s act.”
The Power of Persuasion in Practice
Luis Congdon
You’re totally bringing me back to college sitting in my philosophy class and we were talking about free will. In the world of philosophy, this is a big thing. Is there such thing as free will? Is it predestined? What makes a person make the choices that they make? These are huge philosophical question regarding the power of persuasion.
There was a great writer and I can’t think of his name right now and one of the articles he wrote is essentially saying that, “People once they’re set in certain ways, then there’s just certain laws that they live by and it’s essentially they don’t really have free will even though they’re experiencing it as such but they really don’t.”
It’s like if you turn water to boil, eventually it will boil and that’s just the law. One of the examples he gave is a man has a variety of friends and he chooses to speak to his monk friend who’s grounded in catholic belief system and he’s talking to this guy and the monk responds and says, “You know what you should do and you’ve actually haven’t really come to me for advice. You’ve only come to me to hear what you wanted to hear so you should proceed with exactly what you know you should do and what’s in adherence to you.”
Essentially, what the philosopher is saying is that we choose things and then we rationalize it. However, really truthfully, what’s happening is that we’re already set in our certain ways.
When people come and buy a product or service, I realize that they’re buying it and by the time they come to me, they’ve pretty much already been presold. They might have a few rebuttals. It’s my job to know some of those rebuttals that they have but ultimately, I’m not winning or losing. I mean, to some degree, I don’t feel like I’ve really lost if they say, “No” and, I don’t completely feel like I won if they say “Yes”. It’s a great feeling. It’s gratifying but ultimately, I know that they chose that thing because it’s something they already wanted and I just needed to show them the benefits and make sure that was clear enough for them.
Associating the Power of Persuasion With Emotions
David Deutsch
Yeah. I think that’s great way to look at it. All you can do is put something in front of someone and you can help them find the emotions that will help them to get excited about it, to feel what it might be like to do it. Imagine you’ve lost that weight 3 months from now. Imagine that you have the money that you’ve always wanted.
So you help them get over their short term perspective on things and then, you give them the rational reasons to back up those feelings of wanting to do it because you need that too.
Luis Congdon
Definitely, we want to help them rationalize and show them the benefits. It’s key stuff. I’m sorry I got excited about asking this question because this is something a lot of people don’t really understand around the power of persuasion is understanding the rebuttals that people are going to have.
If you’re in sales and you do it for a day or two, you’re going to hear this, “Oh, I don’t have the money right now. It sounds great but I don’t have the money.” However, when we’re dealing with specific products and programs, that’s just one of them.
Have you found a way that you really like to do your research or to find out what the rebuttals are? I mean, I will sell more consistently if I can pretty much preload their rebuttals and tell them what they’re going to be and then, answer those rebuttals for them. How have you found any strategies around how to do that research so that you understand the market enough to then be able to do that?
Tapping Into the Power of Persuasion
David Deutsch
There’s 3 different ways of doing that.
- You go to forums. You try to see what objections have been brought in the past. You study your competitors, materials you see, what objections they answer. You read the trade publications. You do all that research stuff that can help you get smarter about that and help you realize the power of persuasion.
- Go talk to people. Try to sell it to someone and know the power of persuasion. Have your spouse play the role of the prospect. Go to a real prospect and try to sell them on it. See what objections they come up with.
- Method acting. You really just get in your head and say, “Okay, if it was me and this was being sold to me, what would be my resistance to it? What would I say? What would I want to know?” Maybe I’d want to know if it’s a high quality. Maybe I think it was kind of expensive. Maybe an objection would be, “Are you as a company going to be around for a while?”
I think we know more than we think we know but we never really sit quietly and try to get in touch with that. We need to focus on the power of persuasion techniques.
Luis Congdon
I just recently came out with a course called Profit From Facebook and one of the things we were just talking to Bob Bly earlier in one of our other interviews is how to do this research and I’m always trying to understand how different marketers and copywriters are doing this research. It’s so important and one of the methods I’ve come up with is I go to Facebook and I try to sell the idea. Then, I see people’s questions and then I go to Facebook and I find Facebook groups where the hot buyers for that certain product would be at and I start making post either teach something or hint at a program or product and then, see what the responses are or I’ll even just create my own group so I own the whole group and I can invite potential prospects in and then, I can test them. I am just trying hard to know the power of persuasion.
With Facebook and other social media, as well as surveys, Kamala does this whole survey method where we email our list with a questionnaire and this are all great methods but we need to know this rebuttals. We need to find out what people’s, “what ifs” or “I’m not sure,” “buts,” “sounds great but I’m not sure,” and we need to understand all this stuff.
I think you gave some really excellent methods there.
David Deutsch
I like yours too. This idea of trying to sell it on Facebook either as an idea or as a hint of a program or product or as the actual thing is great.
Kamala Chambers
Yeah. Luis, you’re really great at helping people to be involved in the creation of the product and so, you know that they’re qualified to buy once it’s released. It’s just a really cool process that works really well.
David, it’s been so great having you on the show. We love the insights about the power of persuasion.
Luis Congdon
David, it’s been a real pleasure to have you here today. Thank you so much.
David Deutsch
Same here. I enjoyed it with you guys.
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