How to Make A Relationship Last – Drs. John and Julie Gottman

Julie Gottman We’re so grateful to you for having done that work because without you doing that work, there are no ripples. There’s no effect out there. There’s no impact. So thank you.

John Gottman It’s not research that we’ve done really. It’s really based on our clinical experience and we came up with different ways to how to make a relationship last. I think it’s a double-edged sword. I don’t think technology is either good or bad. It can work both ways. Sherry Turkle, in her book Alone Together showing that it can really damage relationships because people want less connection with more people rather than deeper connection with fewer people. It can work that way but I’ve also seen it worked the other way, it really helps in knowing how to make a relationship last. I’ve seen our daughter, for example, has all these Facebook friends and the community she’s able to create around herself is really impressive. Especially now that Robert Putnam has written his book Bowling Alone and we know that community is declining in America. This social networking can be really a great alternative to building a community in America and that plays a significant role in knowing how to make a relationship last. Technology can work in a bad way where people don’t want to talk face to face, in this case it does not contribute in teaching how to make a relationship last. They’d rather text or use email. And we know that kind of communication really sucks for emotional communication. It’s just terrible. It can really hurt relationships. And it can get in the way of communication that people are always on their phone when they sit down at dinner and we’ve seen 12 teenage girls having a breakfast not even talking to each other, just on their phones. It can be awful and it can get in the way of a love relationship too but it can also be positive I think.

Julie Gottman On the other hand, we have been taking some bar exercises for example, the kinds of things that we do in workshops while mentoring people about how to make a relationship last. We’ve created apps for them so that couples who may not be able to come to workshop, maybe can’t afford it, can’t travel, maybe the partner doesn’t really want to get involved especially committed to 2 whole days of doing something with their partner but are much more open to something that is very much a part of their left hand, which is the cellphone. They can go forward and do some love map questions for example where some questions may come up that they’re guessing the right answer in terms of their partner’s world. They get to turn getting to know one another and finding out more about the human being that their partner is through technology, through this app. Or for example, there may be some open ended questions that is questions that really open up the heart of the other person. Open up the mind really are questions that are much deeper. Like, “Why is it so important to you to be a parent in the future?” Questions like that is a part of another app that couples can play with. Let’s say on a date or when you’re out breakfast asking one another to again really get to know who you are. What are your deeper values? What are your deeper feelings? We’re in the process of crafting lots of different apps because we’re really old. We tend to write on yellow notepads and stuff instead of in our iPhones. We know that technology is very intervolved into our culture now, it helps in educating people how to make a relationship last. If we want to be able to really help and reach couples who are younger, who are very comfortable with technology, then that’s the language we need to speak too in terms of helping people learn better ways to connect with one another and giving them the tools to do so. Technology has really helped in know how to make relationship last.

John Gottman For example, in Afghanistan and Iraq, soldiers are deployed for really long period of time like 12- 15 months. What the army has learned is that 58% of the time, what precedes a suicide attempt by a soldier is a fight with the stateside partner that they’ve had on skype or cell phone. So a captain in the army we worked with in Iraq created skype conversations between soldiers and their stateside partners where they work through our exercises and our seven principles of making marriage work and help them understand intervolve. It eliminated that problem of suicide.

John Gottman I want to tell you about a study that is so interesting which is relevant to how to make a relationship last. It was done by these two researchers Robinson and Price. They put observers in couple’s homes just to count positive things that a husband did toward a wife and a wife did to a husband. What was interesting about their study was they also trained the partners to count these positive things. So the husband was actually trying to notice positive things his wife did for him in an evening and she was doing the same for him. When the couples were happily married, the observers and the couple were in lined. They were reliable.

John Gottman A lot of the problem in this 5:1 ratio is not seeing the positive that actually is there rather than having to generate a positive. It’s a habit of mine of scanning your social environment for what’s going right in the relationship. If you have been abused, you have these shift attractors where you’re trying to scan your social environment for potential danger and what’s wrong. And so, requires a mental shift to look for what’s going right, and lo and behold, people are mostly doing a lot of really nice things for you regardless of your background.

Julie Gottman First of all, I think it’s very easy to oversimplify a little bit in terms of the effects of abuse perhaps. If you are in an abusive relationship, you need to focus on how to make a relationship last in a better way. For example, I’ve been treating abuse for about 45 years now. That’s where I started in my own individual therapy. What I’ve learned from all the people I treated is that actually, people who have been abused are often very good at giving a positive. They’re using giving positives as way to please the other person so the other person doesn’t hurt them. They develop giving positives as a survival skill, as a tool to be able to shape the behavior of a partner so that that partner is kinder to them. That partner doesn’t get displeased with them because if the partner does get displeased with them, they fear they’ll get abused. They’re good at giving positives so the thing that’s very difficult for them is taking in the positives. Taking in the positives means saying, “Yes, I believe you. That’s true,” “I am a good person,” “I am a kind person.” Our parents are a mirror for us, if they are good at how to make a relationship last so are we. So if they treat us badly we believe we deserve it. If we deserve it, that means we’re bad people. Taking in the positives means, “Wait a minute. I am a bad person. So why are you telling me I’m a good person? It doesn’t make any sense.” It collides with our own messages that we’ve internalized. In order to take them in without batting a bat and saying something offensive like, “You’re just saying that because you want to go to bed with me tonight,”

Julie Gottman Open up the door and say, “This makes no sense to me but I’m going to take it in. I’m just going to take it on faith and be thankful my partner doesn’t have great eyesight, has to wear glasses, and thinks I’m beautiful. Terrific. Great news.” Just take it in and that’s where the hard work comes in. Sometime we need to work hard to know how to make a relationship last.

Julie Gottman I think there are some particular tools to use for people who’ve been traumatized in order to increase their safety so that they become more confident about how to make a relationship last. One for example, is when you’ve been traumatized, never assume the thought you think your partner is having is accurate. Don’t assume it. Ask it. For example, if one of you have been traumatized and the other one says “Gosh! I don’t think the bills have been paid. Have they?” What you end up hearing the other person say and what you’re thinking the person saying is “Oh, so you think I’m really lazy? You think I’m bad? You think I’m irresponsible that I haven’t paid the bills? So, you ask. “Are you saying that you’re upset with me that I haven’t paid the bills? Is that what you’re saying? And the person then, gets a chance to correct your distorted perception and to say “No! Gosh! This wasn’t about you at all. I was just thinking to myself, ‘Oh oh! They haven’t been paid’ and either you or me, maybe we should sit down together and pay them. It wasn’t about you.” A lot of times, when you’ve been traumatized, any little pint, we’re vigilant. We’re hypervigilant for criticism and we’re going to see where it doesn’t exist and then we’ll react defensively which then ends up with escalated quarrel. Instead of assuming you know what our partner’s thinking or saying, ask. Check it out to make sure you’re not distorting the perception. Another thing to do is ask for reassurance that helps in knowing how to make a relationship last. If your partner hasn’t said, “I love you” all day today, what may come up in you is anxiety of, “Gosh! I wonder if they still do.” “I wonder if they still care about me.” “I wonder if they’re lunch with that cute girl at work means maybe they’re attracted to the other girl.” That’s where our minds will go when we don’t feel safe and when we’re so insecure. Again, asking the partner for what you need is huge, this is how to make a relationship last. Coming to the partner of the end of the day, “How was your day? Honey, I really miss you saying you love me. Would you please tell me you love me and then give me a detailed list of why so I can figure it out?” Asking for what you need is one of the hardest things in the whole wide world to do when you’ve been traumatized because of portion not worthy of anything.

Julie Gottman Yeah.

John Gottman To feel safety in all relationships, trauma or without trauma, is attunement, which means that you really do listen when your partner is upset, even upset with you. You deal with your partner’s negative emotions by saying, “Talk to me baby. I want to know what you feel. Are you mad at me? Okay, so what are your concerns? Tell me. I’ll take notes. What is it?” By always meeting negative emotion, anger, disappointment, hurt feelings, sadness, fear, not feeling safe, feeling afraid by comfort and listening and taking it in and empathy, then you systematically build safety moment by moment.

Julie Gottman I think I’m going to kind of take a leap here that when you say sweet, you mean not angry.

John Gottman Right. Most of us are not sweet all the time and if we are, it’s phony. I think the point is that gentle start up is meant as an antidote or an alternative to being critical or contemptuous. One doesn’t have to necessarily be sweet per se. One just has to not be critical or contemptuous and the way to do that is to be describing yourself. “I feel about what– Here’s what I need”. If you mean by sweet, don’t be critical, yes, that’s true. You can have negative emotion. You can express those negative emotions. “I’m angry,” “I’m furious,” “I’m really upset.” You can have passion. You can have intensity in your expressing your complaint. That’s “gentle start up” but the point is to not go critical and contemptuous and say, “You! You! You! You are too lazy. You are irresponsible.” That’s the harsh start up that we’re trying to avoid. So as long as you describe yourself in making the complaint and situation, that’s good enough. This is so much important in creating self-awareness about how to make a relationship last. The other thing that you’re bringing up, which is such a good point is that asking nicely doesn’t guarantee you’ll hear, “Yes” in a response. Your partner still has the right to say no to be true to themselves and say, “Gee, you’ve said that ever so sweetly but forget about it. It’s not going to happen.” That’s okay. Your partner has a right to adhere to their own needs, their own values, to what feels right for them and if that means, “No” in response to your need, then they’ll say sweetly “No” and you move on.

Julie Gottman It depends on what you’re talking about. If it’s a topic where your partner’s need is your nightmare, let’s say, for example, you just had a baby by a cesarean section and it’s a week later and your partner wants to have sex. You’re not excited about having sex at that point. How do you listen without going ballistic and say, “Are you kidding? I just went through– What’s the matter with you that you’re asking?!” You don’t want to go defensive. That’s the point. At this point, you realize why it is important to educate your partner regarding how to make a relationship last. One of the things you can do is take notes to have self-awareness about how to make a relationship last. Take notes while you’re listening.   Then, if your partner’s done gentle start up, it will be easier to say, “Okay, let me make sure I’ve got it straight” and say what you heard and try to put yourself in your partner’s shoes  to say “Okay, makes sense that you want that.” Still doesn’t mean you have to say “Yes” but what it does mean is at least you can help your partner feeling listened and understood. And you may as a listener also wants to ask some questions before you respond.

• What makes that so important to you?
• What would be your ideal dream here?
• Is there some childhood history or backstory to why you want this?

Asking questions enable you to understand in a much deeper level what your partner is asking for and why they’re asking for it, which may soften your desire to want to reach toward your partner and give them what their asking.

John Gottman Let’s say something about, “No”. Using game theory and a mathematical proof that if people respond to, “No” when somebody has asked her for sexual intercourse. They are making love with punishment. Any negativity will lead a couple to eventually stop having sex. The only way to respond to, “No” about sex is to say, “Oh, thank you for telling me you’re not in the mood to have sex. What would you like to do? Want to go for a walk? Want to make popcorn and watch a movie? This is why self-awareness is so important in knowing how to make a relationship last.

John Gottman I think you just eat it. I think that particularly if a man feels hurt. If he’s getting rejected every time, that’s a different. Then it’s worthy of conversation. “Let’s talk about this. What’s going on for you? What’s happening?” But I think that when somebody says, “No” to sex, you really want to say “I’m happy to know you’re not in the mood.” But it doesn’t end connection. This is how to make a relationship last with the help of small gestures.

Julie Gottman Again, it comes back to asking. Asking is something really essential to know how to make a relationship last. For all of us who come into relationship, having had less than perfect parenting, if we want to have sex with our partners and our partner says, “No”, we end up feeling hurt. What are we hurt by? We think that our partner doesn’t love us, our partner’s not attracted to us, our partner doesn’t feel any sexual desire for us, or our partner wants somebody else. Again, it comes down to asking. It comes down to saying, “Does that mean you’re not attracted to me?” “Does that mean you don’t love me?” This brings to mind the story. We have a very wonderful therapist and friend who is currently dying of a brain tumor. We went to visit him about a week and a half ago and spent some time with his wife. Here is this man, he was like 63. He’s on literally on his deathbed. He’s just the sweetest most wonderful man. He and his wife are sitting outside. She tells us and he says to her, “Honey, do you think I’ve been too selfish and self-centered throughout my life? Are you sorry you married me?” And she said, “Oh my God! No,” and she breaks down in tears and she tells him how loving he has always been during their 35 years together and how grateful she is for everything. Such couples learn how to make a relationship last in the perfect way possible.

John Gottman And the arguments were not getting enough of them.

Julie Gottman That’s right. That’s what the arguments were about. There you have even wonderful, fabulous human beings who’ve been together forever and they’re committed, they love each other and they’ve raised kids together. Even there on the death bed, there is the question of “Did I give you enough and have I been good enough for you to love me to be worthy of your love?” It’s a question we always have. When we feel hurt by somebody saying, “No” to us, what do we do with it? Ask. Because that hurt has this preconceived notion beneath it that says, “I’m not worthy of love.” So, ask. “Am I?” And that’s typically what you’ll hear.

John Gottman We always have totally different perspectives.

Julie Gottman Even though we together make one brain. Two halves of one’s cerebral cortex. Two halfwits make a wit.

Julie Gottman When you say charged, there are various degrees of charged. Of course, in John’s research with love, one of the big things they found that was a predictor of very poor prognosis of the future for a marriage or a relationship was getting flooded. Meaning, heart rate above 100 beats a minute or if you’re athletic, maybe 80-85 beats a minute while you’re sitting there having the conversation. You’ve gone into fight or flight. If the conversation is very touchy and sensitive, you can get flooded, you can feel attacked, you can feel criticized and your body will react to that as if somebody’s throwing a spear at you. You can’t think well when you are in fight or flight. You can’t resolve anything. You can’t even hear what’s been said because all you hear is attack. Realize that mastering skills to how to make a relationship last is above all. One tool we often give people is if either one of you feel so charged that you are really feeling hot or your body is getting tensed, your fists are clenching, your jaw his clenching, your eyes are clogging out. Your heart rate is too high.

Julie Gottman Beautiful, yes that’s right. People have to tell their partners that they need to take a break and to tell their partner when they’ll come back to resume the conversation, this is so much important in knowing how to make a relationship last. They need to take a break where they’re out of visual range, out of hearing range from each other and during that time, they’re working on self-soothing. But when they announce they want a break, if they don’t tell the partner when they’re going to come back, the partner will just feel abandoned and they cut off so that’s an important element of it. When they’re on their break, they need to not be thinking about the argument because that will keep them engaged in all the feelings of it, which will keep them flooded. Instead, they need to do something self-soothing to take their mind off the argument so their bodies can calm down. For example, listening to music, taking a walk, yoga, meditation, or anything that will be self-soothing. Then, they can come back and it will be a very different conversation because their bodies are calm and they value how to make a relationship last. Another thing with feeling charged is to make a little repair right in the moment when you start feeling charged. A repair can be something like, “Can you hold on a minute? Let me just catch my breath for a second” or, could be something like, “Will you please stop interrupting me. I just need to finish my thought” or, “You know, that felt like an insult. Could you say that in another way?” The other partner, in order for it to really be a repair needs to take that in, to hear it and to say, “Okay, All right. Go ahead. Finish.” Or, “Sorry, I didn’t mean to insult you. Let me say it in another way.” Then a repair is made and it calms things down. At the Gottman Institute, we have what’s called a repair checklist and it has a whole series of phrases for people to look at and repeat when they can feel that conversation getting too charged and crossing the over the line into ugly territory. We know this is important to make them realize how to make a relationship last.  If they look at that list, there are lots of phrases that are rehearsed that they can then just say in the moment even though it feels kind of phony because it’s not their words. Nonetheless, it has the effect of slowing things down and getting things back on track again.

John Gottman The other thing that we do in therapy is try to teach people a concept that Dan Wile has come up with and we teach them how to make a relationship last. That is, “Solving the moment instead of solving the problem.” Solving the moment is about turning attack and defensiveness into self-disclosure. So instead of attacking and getting defensive, you really talk about what you’re feeling. As therapists, we can help clients do that and speak for them, we put all efforts in order to teach them how to make a relationship last. When we do that, we can really model how to say. “I’m feeling defensive” instead of attacking and becoming defensive or acting like an innocent victim and becoming defensive and you can really say “I’m feeling defensive right now. I truly said repair. Can you say that in a different way?” It’s totally different to say “I’m feeling defensive. Can you say that in a different way?” and then say “Well, you’re an idiot”. Before we teach them how to make a relationship last, we need to be the role models. Solving the moment I think is a really useful concept for couples to learn how to make a relationship last. So they’re not only trying to solve the problem, they’re trying to solve the moment when they run into a speed bump in their communication.

Julie Gottman Many thoughts are coming to mind about how to make a relationship last but they’re not appropriate to say. It’s been a pleasure.

John Gottman I would say there’s one little tool that we have called How to be a Great Listener. It’s just a little pamphlet on how to listen to anger, how to listen to fear, how to listen to sadness, and how to be a real active listener who listens with love in mind and compassion. This all helps you in knowing how to make a relationship last. I think that’s a skill we could all develop a lot better.

Julie Gottman Thank you.