Codependency and Narcissism – Ross Rosenberg
SUMMARY OF THE ROSS ROSENBERG PODCAST INTERVIEW
Codependency and narcissism can be a sneaky and all-too-common relationship dynamic.A codependent person and a narcissistic person are magnetically drawn to each other. Ross Rosenberg, a psychotherapist and codependency and narcissism expert, explains what these dynamics look like in a relationship.These relationship dynamics can be extremely painful.However, Ross gives advice on how you can get out and recover from a relationship ruled by codependency and narcissism.
KEY TAKEAWAYS OF THE ROSS ROSENBERG PODCAST INTERVIEW
Many codependents, or people who feel powerless in relationships, are attracted to narcissists. They habitually fall in love with the same type of person despite their promises to themselves.Narcissists are people that need focus on themselves. They need to be right. They need to have people talk about and compliments them. They tend to be entitled. They tend to brag, and they don’t like to be criticized.Codependency and narcissism is a common, yet a damaging, relationship dynamic.The human magnet syndrome draws these opposite people, the codependent and narcissist, together in a perfect dysfunctional balance of a relationship.Codependency and narcissism are attracted to each other because they were raised in a certain way that created psychological harm.The origins of codependency and narcissism come from being raised by a narcissistic parent.The way the child adapts to the codependency and narcissism parent dynamic determines what their relationship template is as an adult.Healing co-dependency is about self-love. You have to heal those wounds inside of you that cause you to feel not worthy of being loved, respected, and cared for.Codependency and narcissism are sometimes misunderstood. If two co-dependents meet, there’s no chemistry. They both like to help and listen. Or if two narcissists meet, they tend to not like each other because they keep interrupting each other.Healthy relationships are mutual and reciprocal even with the problems you experience. Relationships with codependency and narcissism take time and work to heal.TRANSCRIPTION: CODEPENDENCY AND NARCISSISM – ROSS ROSENBERG
Codependency And Narcissism
Luis CongdonOn today’s podcast, we’re going to be talking about codependency and narcissism.Have you ever been in an unhealthy relationship? Then I’m sure you’ve probably thought maybe you’re in a relationship that has codependency and narcissism.I’ve brought on Ross Rosenberg, a specialist on codependency and narcissism.Ross Rosenberg is the creator of The Human Magnet Syndrome: Why We Love People Who Hurt Us and The Codependency Cure by Ross Rosenberg: Reversing the Human Magnet Syndrome.It’s fantastic to have you here. Welcome to the show Ross.
Ross Rosenberg Thank you. I’m so glad to be on it.
Luis CongdonI want to get started by asking you about your book The Human Magnet Syndrome. Why should someone read it?
Ross Rosenberg The book, its full title is The Human Magnet Syndrome: Why We Love People Who Hurt Us.People need to know why they feel stuck and perpetually powerless in relationships with narcissist. I believe that there’s a lot of books in the market that will tell you what to do.However, in order solve the problem first you need to actually understand the problem.In my book, I explained why so many co-dependents or people who feel powerless in relationships were attracted to narcissists.And why they always habitually if not reflexively fall in love with the same type of person. May be over and over again, despite their promises to themselves.So my book will give you hope. It will finally give you the explanation that will make sense to you. It will empower you to look forward and to make the changes.
The Difference Between Codependency And Narcissism
Luis CongdonOne of the things your work really brought to mind is a question for me and a lot of the listeners is what exactly is codependency and narcissism?I went out and asked the question. I posted on different social media sites. A number of people thought that maybe they used to be narcissistic or that they are.I think that there’s a misunderstanding of what narcissism is, and what’s typically codependents behavior.Could you clarify that for us a little bit more?
Ross Rosenberg Sure. In fact, one of the reasons I’ve wrote my book is there’s some misunderstanding of what both codependency and narcissism is.Let me explain first that narcissism can be understood on a continuum that there are healthy narcissistic traits.So narcissists were people that need focus on themselves. They need to be right. They need to have people talk about them, any compliments. They tend to be entitled.They tend to brag and they don’t like to be criticized. The ones that are pathological have little empathy and very limited abilities to connect in a relationship that has mutuality or reciprocity.The controller narcissists are what I call the Pathological narcissists.They involve themselves in a strictly one sided relationship where everything needs to be geared for themselves. That is a pathological narcissist.There are different degrees of narcissists. I have a theory in my book called The Continuum of Self.It actually explains exactly what narcissism and codependency are and they’re set on a continuum.The codependent is someone who makes everyone else more important than themselves. They’re powerless to get their needs but they give in to other people’s needs.They perpetually want validation by trying to love someone or give to them. They have no power in relationship.
Codependency And Narcissism Are Usually Misunderstood
Ross Rosenberg If we look at this two, the co-dependent is someone who habitually are in relationships with narcissists. Because they are the weaker, the more submissive, and acquiescent.However, the narcissists are habitually are in relationships with co-dependents because they are the controlling person. The needy person, the one that needs all of the power and control.The human magnet syndrome withdraws these two opposite people together almost in a perfect dysfunctional balance of a relationship. Like two dance couples, the leader and the follower.
Kamala Chambers Why do you think these two are attracted to each other so much? It’s almost like they create balanced partners when they are together in a very unbalanced way.
Ross Rosenberg They are attracted to each other because they were raised in a certain way that created psychological harm.I had this on my YouTube channel and I do recommend that your listeners go to it. You can just go on YouTube and just type in my name Ross Rosenberg.I explained that the origins of codependency and narcissism come from being raised by a narcissistic parent.Narcissistic parents need their children to make them feel good about themselves. That’s a narcissism.The way a child adapts to a narcissistic parent is going to determine what their relationship template is going to be as an adult.
Ross Rosenberg For example, if a child finds that they can make the narcissistic parent happy by being the trophy child.The pretty child, the handsome child, the child that’s agreeable, and the child that can always make their parent happy.They learn early on that to be loved, you have to make someone happy. That’s a relationship template that’s going to manifest into codependency.
Ross Rosenberg For example, if a child finds that they can make the narcissistic parent happy by being the trophy child.The pretty child, the handsome child, the child that’s agreeable, and the child that can always make their parent happy.They learn early on that to be loved, you have to make someone happy.That’s a relationship template that’s going to manifest into co-dependency.
Origins of Codependency And Narcissism
Ross Rosenberg However, on the other side, if a child can’t make the narcissist happy. And he can’t figure out a way to make the narcissist feel good about the relationship.This child is going to grow up unattended, unloved and in some cases, neglected and abused. And then, they developed a relationship template where the world is unsafe.They realize the only person that’s going to love you is yourself and that later will manifest into pathological narcissism.Codependency and narcissism comes from being raised by a narcissist.
Luis CongdonAs you’re talking, I’m thinking of like a majority of relationships that I see. I’m kind of sad to say that out loud but, a lot of couples I see are sacrificing and consumed by these dynamics that you’re talking about.As I was reading your book, I started to feel like, “Woah! Am I even displaying some of these behaviors?” And it’s very easy to feel like maybe you have this.Narcissism is never considered a healthy thing. You said that there is a spectrum but I never really thought about it as a spectrum.I’ve always thought basically, if you’re a narcissist, you’re selfish, self-centered, and self-absorbed. You’re not nice, you’re obsessed with yourself, and you don’t really care about other people. If you’re codependent, you’re unhealthy and you’re powerless.This inherently dysfunctional codependency dance requires a certain amount of dysfunction prior to the relationship.
Ross Rosenberg Right, but I created the continuum of self-theory. In order to help people understand that there is a range of potentials.The most severed co-dependent is all the way on the end of one side of the continuum. The most severed narcissist is all the way on one end of the continuum.One’s all about their own needs and one’s all about self.However, you could also be healthier. You can be like moderately consumed with your own needs. Or you could be moderately consumed with other people’s needs.
Understanding Codependency And Narcissism And The Theory of Human Magnet Syndrome
Ross Rosenberg The Theory of the Human Magnet Syndrome is that you match up with someone who fits you perfectly in an opposite way.Not everyone is pathologically narcissistic and not everyone is pathologically co-dependent.We all fit on this continuum. As important is it to understand this as a way to point someone’s problems, it also points their strengths.Let’s say you’re a codependent and you’re perfectly match with a narcissist. As you get healthier, then the balance doesn’t work anymore.There’s no balance, then either you have to go back in your codependency or the narcissist has to change. Since narcissist doesn’t like the change, these relationships usually fall apart.
Kamala Chambers I’m pretty certain that I used to be in a relationship with a narcissist. Does that automatically make me co-dependent or was I codependent then?
Ross Rosenberg No, not exactly. What have made you codependent is if you’re relationship with a narcissist and you didn’t try to stand up for yourself.You didn’t try to set boundaries and you just gave up or you kept believing that they’ll get better.However, the fact that you were in a relationship. And you got out of it shows that there’s some level of mental health, perhaps great mental health.The point is just the very fact that you’re out of it, tells me that you wanted more from it.If you read my book on the chapter of The Continue of Self. You might have been more on the co-dependent side but realized you needed to be treated better.Of course, relationships don’t last when you demand that and you have a narcissist as a partner.
Getting Out Of Codependency And Narcissism
Luis CongdonOne of the biggest questions that I’ve been asked by people in different conversations that I’ve had is. How do you get out of one of these relationships?They tend to be very addictive. One of the key signs of them is person feels like this is the magical person, this is the answer, and all.If they can’t survive in this relationship, they’re life is over. You have this dynamic where both people just feel stuck to each other like drug addicts.Other people watching it have such a hard time and I’ve been asked how I help someone get out of this relationship.
Luis CongdonOne of things I do to find interviews and people to come on the show is I search through the internet. YouTube has become a really fantastic medium for me to discover nuggets and you’ve been one of those people.A quick search on codependency on YouTube pretty much brings you. You pretty much dominate that fear of codependency and narcissism, which is fantastic.You have such a great content.There’s videos on YouTube that are well over an hour long on trainings.If someone wanted to really try to understand this, they would have to go to school for a long time but if they wanted to just kind of get an overall view of it and get some insight and start asking some questions, they could go to YouTube and look you up.Why do you think your YouTube channel is so high in views and people are watching?
The Fear Of Codependency And Narcissism
Ross Rosenberg First of all, I should tell your listeners that my YouTube channel’s a little less than 2 years old. I have almost 1.2 million views and 10,000 subscribers.I’ve had a lot of people in different medias outlets contact me and say, “What did you do?”Because I don’t have great photography, great this, or great that. I told them, “Content is people and out in the world who are looking for answers can recognize someone who has something to offer.”And yes, I’m in the business, I have a counselling center, I have a training company, I’m an author. And yes, it would be nice to have someday to retire. Don’t get me wrong.However, more than that, I want to leave a legacy behind. I want to give people an opportunity to grow and change.And this is the young Ross Rosenberg of 1979 who said when he grows up he wants to be a therapist. And he wants to change the world.That was the idealism that stays with me. I really want to make a difference.And so, YouTube serves a dual purpose.
- I get to reach an international audience and really help people out.
- It’s really good for business. It really gets my name out.
Codependency And Narcissism Are Not Common
Luis CongdonDo you think codependency and narcissism are more common nowadays?My theory on it is either you’re kind of the guy who’s doing it, really going out there. And sharing the subject and maybe it’s just more common or more widely acknowledged now.
Ross Rosenberg First of all, it’s not more common.One of the things that I have great pride is my book introduces the subject in a way that everyone gets.The only person that doesn’t get it and he gets pissed off are the narcissists.What I’ve done is I’ve explained it in a way that really clicks.I learned this because until I wrote my book, I had a secret that didn’t want anyone to know. I had deep shame about the fact that I’ve been divorced twice, been married three times because I felt so inadequate.I carried so much shame and loneliness about me as a therapist making that mistake so many times that I didn’t tell anyone.Everyone knew, my friends except my family that I was divorce once.However, when I wrote my book. I wanted my reader to know that this repeated pattern happens to everyone.You shouldn’t be ashamed of it. You should just learn about it so you can change it.I think that it resonates with the co-dependents out there. It gives them hope because a lot of co-dependents like me, they just feel like they’re bad people.They feel they are lonely people or they’re just flawed. And when someone like me gives an explanation, the light bulb goes off and they feel inspired.The greatest feeling that I have is when I get thousands of letters of people saying that my content changed their lives. There’s no money that can make feel that good.
Recovering From Codependency And Narcissism
Ross Rosenberg So I’m speaking universal truth in a way that people would understand. That I learned from my own therapy and my own journey of recovery.
Kamala Chambers How powerful. Makes me think about the journey that I’ve been on with dating a narcissist and how I felt so messed up after that relationship.I just felt so twisted and manipulated.I’m wondering what you would recommend as a recovery process for people.People who’ve been in a relationship with a narcissist. And don’t really know which way is up and down after that experience because it can be so manipulating.
Ross Rosenberg It’s interesting. When I start to write another book, I’m thinking of new things to say and great ways to say it.And one day I came up with a sentence that explained my whole idea for the second book. Now of course, I need 225 more pages.But the essence of codependency recovery is self-love.
Ross Rosenberg To answer you your question, what advice do I have for co-dependents out that either are stuck in this relationships.Or coming out of it and are broken or beaten up because of it is to understand that if the core of your codependency is you somewhere along the line.Most because of your childhood, you never really learn to love and value yourself. You never really were thought by the way your parents raised you to believe you’re worthwhile to be respected, love, and cared.And because of that early childhood experience or trauma, you keep accepting that because your self-esteem is so embattled and beaten down.
The Antidote For Codependency And Narcissism
Ross Rosenberg What I say to this co-dependents who are in relationships.Or abandoned relationships, who are on the verge of repeating the pattern again is to understand that you have to heal those wounds inside of you that cause you to feel not worthy of being loved, respected, and cared for.This is the core of codependence recovery.Resolve those wounds that perpetuate your automatic if not magnetic or reflexive reaction to a narcissist and to accept their harm.
Kamala Chambers Beautiful and I love how it boils down to that self-love piece. I’m curious about if two codependents are attracted to partners who that are also codependent, what kind of relationship that creates?
Ross Rosenberg It’s funny you said that because I just finished this session with one of my co-dependent clients. I told her this joke that I’ll tell you.I got this joke from one of my trainings. I say, we’re going to break for lunch now. And imagine three of you guys were co-dependent, are going to ask, “Where do you want to go out for lunch?”How long do you think that conversations going to last? That’s a 15 minute discussion. “I don’t care. Where do you want to go?” “Well, where do you want to go? I don’t care.”And then, all of a sudden, someone who doesn’t have anyone to go out to lunch with because he’s a narcissistic son of a gun comes up.And say “Hey, where are you guys going out to lunch?” Takes over the conversation and they say, “They don’t care” and he picks, “Well, let’s go for Indian food” and let’s say this three co-dependents don’t like Indian food.But they’ll say “Sure” and they go out to lunch and next thing you know, they’re all unhappy but not saying anything.
Codependency And Narcissism In Relationships
Ross Rosenberg Two codependents in a relationship doesn’t work.According to human magnet syndrome, you need opposites to attract. I chose the name Human Magnet Syndrome because we think of magnets.The North Pole where the negative magnetic pole is always attracted to the south pole or this positive magnetic pole.You can always see that opposite magnets attract each other and similar poles repel each other.If you’ve ever known someone who’s going on a date, let’s say both of them are equally gorgeous and attractive but they said there’s no chemistry.That experience of no chemistry is often the result of Human Magnet Syndrome. That the two codependents are too much alike and they don’t feel like there’s any of kind connection.But if you put a codependent on a date with a narcissist, there’s magnetism and charm.All of a sudden, that narcissist feels charming, exciting, and bold to the codependent. That narcissist feels that the codependent is sweet, caring, and patient.The whole time the narcissist talks during that date while the co-dependent listens.The point is if two codependents meet, there’s no chemistry because they don’t know what to do. They like to help and listen.Or if two narcissists meet, they tend to not like each other because they keep interrupting each other.The Human Magnet Syndrome says relationships unconsciously move towards an opposite attraction. It doesn’t quite work out well with two codependents.Have any of you guys ever been on a date with someone who you thought on paper was perfect but she didn’t feel any chemistry?
Luis CongdonOh yeah.
Deeper Insight Into Codependency And Narcissism
Ross Rosenberg That means whoever you are no the continuum, they were probably more similar to you than opposite and that’s unconscious.It’s like your mind, part of your psyche, knows that it just doesn’t feel right.
Luis CongdonYeah. I love myself but I definitely don’t want to be on a date with myself. Contrast is nice.I know you’ve done some work with Dr. Harville Hendrix too, right?
Ross Rosenberg Yes. I was really fortunate to have him endorsed my book.Six months ago, there was a panel discussion I was invited to with him, 3 other relationship experts, and his wife.We got to do a series of video-taped the panel discussions which are available on my YouTube channel.He is brilliant. He is a master of relationship theory.Probably he is one of more influential people in my life in the understanding of the theories that culminated in writing my book.
Kamala Chambers Yeah. We had the pleasure of meeting him this summer.He’s been on the podcast which I think your work with his work is a really full spectrum experience for navigating relationships.
Ross Rosenberg Well, thank you. That’s quite a compliment. I appreciate that.
Kamala Chambers I’m wondering since we live in this day and age of these quizzes online, getting diagnosis, and figuring it out.Do you have any resources for figuring out if you’re dating a narcissist, if you’re a narcissist, or if you’re a co-dependent?
Ross Rosenberg First of all I have to tell you my opinion. I think online quizzes are very misleading and I think the whole world on the internet is ADD.
Codependency And Narcissism Is Complicated
Ross Rosenberg Everyone wants a complicated subject reduced to like a 30-second sound byte.Those quizzes I see are more opportunities for the writers to get to market themselves because they lack substance.I’ve seen these great titles and these empty quizzes.There’s no real quick way to understand something complicated but that’s why I created my YouTube channel.Skip the quizzes they don’t tell you anything reliable about codependency and narcissism.Either buy my book and if $18 is too much for you, you can go online and go to YouTube and look at my videos.But if you really want to get a bird’s eye view into my newest work, go to human magnet syndrome where you can buy the book.But you could also buy the full 6 hours seminar that has all of my newer ideas. The point is if you want to click bit of information, check out a few my videos.But really, there’s no way to solve a complicated problem quickly.With the help of my content, I promise you you’re going to walk away with an understanding of if you’re codependent or not.But I do have a disclaimer. The videos are just excerpts of all my work. The book itself is a condensed version of everything put together so it’s out there. I don’t have any quick 15-step processes.
Kamala Chambers And tell the audience one more time where we can watch the videos and where we can get your book?
Ross Rosenberg To find my book and the seminar trainings, you go to human magnet syndrome. To see my videos on YouTube, just go to YouTube and type in my name Ross Rosenberg.
Trainings On Codependency And Narcissism
Luis CongdonRoss, I also know that you do a lot of trainings around codependency and narcissism. I want people to go on that website if they’re interested in getting some training. Trainings around mediations, deeper insight into co-dependency, narcissism.Anytime I get a professional on the show. There’s a lot of examples and a lot of work telling us what unhealthy relationships look like, how to identify them. But, how do we know for a healthy relationship?
Ross Rosenberg I explained this in the human magnet syndrome along with codependency and narcissism.Healthy relationships are mutual and reciprocal even with the problems you experience. Because I think a normal relationship has problems.However, healthy relationship resolves them and you learn from them.It’s when both people can demonstrate and show their love, care, and respect for the other one in a way that the other one feels it.Even with mistakes or some bad behavior, the person that tries to build up their lover, tries to become better because of the relationship.A healthy relationship is to be able to solve the problems, to learn from them, and to always feel loved, respected, and cared for.
Identifying Unhealthy Relationships And Codependency And Narcissism
Luis CongdonThat’s wonderful. Again, this isn’t like a simple answer because it’s not that we’re going to be able to give a 30 second answer of this is what love is like.Love is one of the most commonly written about subjects. Because as humans, we need it and we thrive on it. It’s our gasoline.It’s our sunshine. I really strongly believe in people learning how to identify unhealthy relationships and routines that they have.We all have our certain grooves in a disk. We all have those and once we identify them, it’s just so much easier to change.It’s been really great to have you on the show today. Kamala and I have really enjoyed talking to you about codependency and narcissism.
Kamala Chambers Absolutely, and you really helped put a lot of things in the light about my past relationships.And also to look at how I’m in a healthy relationship now.I love how you were able to just distill a lot of it down to recovering from being with a narcissist and really getting to that essence of self-love again.That’s some really incredible points today regarding codependency and narcissism.
Ross Rosenberg Kamala and Luis, you guys were great, great interviewees. Love your show and I appreciate the invitation.
I am confused because my mil is an enabler and codependent to a narcissistic fil. She displays narcissistic traits when you do not toe the line. Narcissists are not codependents, so my question is are these traits learned from the narcissist fil? Or is codependency an act by a person who is in fact a covert narcissistic? Both my mil and fil together seem fairly stable and in a working relationship. Of course the children and other members of the family are the real sufferers.
I believe that yes, we learn behaviors from our partners. I have found, as stated in the interview by Ross, that narcissists are drawn to codependents. It sounds to me like you’ve found, that as she has been with her partner longer, her behavior has changed – which I’d say is just a reflection of the modeling and relationship of her primary relationship.